Thursday, January 31, 2008

HUM 221: More poetry by Joy Harjo, more questions (plus the same three)

Friday (weather permitting), we'll read more about Joy Harjo, a Creek/Muscogee poet originally from Oklahoma who now lives in Albuquerque and spends a lot of time in Hawaii. She's a member of the American Academy of Poets, who have a brief biography and links to poems called "Deer Dancer" and "Equinox." In "Deer Dancer" she tells about an ugly incident -- a Native American woman who takes her clothes off in a bar, and the people there -- at least the Native Americans -- see something proud and good about their heritage in:
... the stranger whose tribe we

recognized, her family related to deer, if that's who she was, a people

accustomed to hearing songs in pine trees, and making them hearts.
Harjo also calls her "the proverbial dream girl, the face of the moon." (There's the moon again, in another bar. What's a nice moon like you doing in a place like this? What's the deer-dancer woman doing in a place like this? Or, as Harjo asks, "That's what I'd like to know, what are we all doing in a place like this?" What's going on here?)

Harjo writes a lot about alcoholism and other social problems. But she also writes a lot about how we come to accept who we are, and how we reconcile ourselves with the world. "Deer Dancer" concludes:
The music ended. And so does the story. I wasn't there. But I imagined her

like this, not a stained red dress with tape on her heels but the deer who

entered our dream in white dawn, breathed mist into pine trees, her fawn a

blessing of meat, the ancestors who never left.
Can you see any images in the poem, any action, any narrative that shows Native American people in very seedy circumstances? Like in a cheap bar? Dancing naked on the furniture? But can you see anything in Native American culture still shining through in spite of the circumstances? What would it mean to be like a deer? In Native culture? To us, in our culture? To you? What are deer like? Are they graceful? Are they natural. Do they belong in bars? Think about some of these things.

What is Harjo saying about Native American culture and values and Native hope for the future? About her own personal values and hope for the future? What can she say to all of us about our values and our ability to overcome mean circumstances.

Joy Harjo is very big on reconciliation, on working through personal difficulties. And she's very big on the Muscogee culture. In a poem called "Autobiography," she tells the history of her people -- how they were forced west in the 1830s and their land was stolen -- and how she came to accept her heritage one night nursing a drunk she found on the street, a drunk from the Jemez pueblo who reminded her of her father. She ends the poem:
I have since outlived that man from Jemez, my father and that ragged self I chased through precarious years. But I carry them with me the same as this body carries the heart as a drum. Yesterday there was rain traveling east to home. A hummingbird spoke. She was a shining piece of invisible memory, inside the raw cortex of songs. I knew then this was the Muscogee season of forgiveness, time of new corn, the spiraling dance.
See how "Autobiography" works through difficult issues and comes out talking about spirit, forgiveness, new life? Does "Deer Dancer" do something similar? How do you respond to the poems?

Blog your response to these two poems by Joy Harjo, "Deer Dancer" and "Autobiography." What do they tell you about Muscogee culture? What do they tell you about Harjo? What do they tell you about yourself? Remember the three questions I asked the other day to get you thinking about your response to a poem? Well, here they are again:
1. What about this work stands out in my mind?
2. What in my background, values, needs and interests makes me react that way?
3. What specific things in the work trigger that reaction?
Post your response -- at least 4-5 sentences long -- as comments to this post. Please note: If you were taught in English class never to say "I" in a paper for school, you're off the hook in this class! There's no way you can write about these questions without saying "I." That's what they're all about.

29 comments:

jeefrs23 said...

It's an interesting story. It's hard to find in these situations the balance between what is socially acceptable and what is just a display of cultural heritage. Obviously, you can't just strip down in a bar. But I'm sure somewhere, the agitators are saying that by not allowing this is somehow a race matter.



Deer are graceful, fluid, and stupid for prancing across the road. Being compared to a deer would be a nice tribute. Being light on your feet and just being as free as a wild animal....or something like that. I'm no expert interpretor of poems, but if you're being compared to a deer, I'd say it's probably a positive comparison.

Joe said...

In the first poem " The Deer Dancer" I can imagine all of the people standing at the bar and I also see that it is about some drunken people staggering at the bar falling over, another thing that stands to my mind would be that the reason that I can tell that they are American Indians because she states that Native Americans are in trouble because no one in the bar didn't know her.

In the second story they tell me that Harjo is that her people came from an agriculturally based society in the current Southeastern United States. They tell me about myself that I also come from a agricultural part of the country in the Midwest.

jade said...

In the poem "Deer Dancer" Harjo speaks about the American Indians who hang out in a run down bar and drink all night. She almost makes them look like they are all alcoholics and this is all their life consists of. We can tell that they are American Indians because in the first paragraph she writes "We were Indian ruins." This poem could also be saying that the American Indians are just accepting themselves for who they are. In a way this poem makes me feel sorry for the American Indians described in this poem.

Katie said...

I thought the poem was kind of confusing. This Indian women comes in a bar to dance naked. The only people in the bar are the "harcore" ones. And they relate her to a deer.

The part that stood out to me was:
"You would know she could hear only what she wanted to; don't we all? Left the drink of betrayal Richard bought her, at the bar. What was she on? We all wanted some. Put a quarter in the juke. We all take risks stepping into thin air."

To me it is saying she is a risk taker, I think dancing naked is a very big risk. It seems like she is on her own mission, and she seems like the type of person that knows what she wants and doesnt let anyone or anything (like drinking) get in her way. From what I got when they compare her to a deer they think that she is beatuful and graceful. One time someone says "What is a girl like you doing in a place like this."

kurtdudley said...

I think that she is trying to portray the indians as drunks, to show what we possibly have caused. They say they are american ruins, and thus maybe that's why they are like this. With the deer dancer, most of the time, deer are considered graceful. So, i'm guessing that she was a good dancer, and they were proud of her.

Jared16 said...

This poem refers to the last people of a ruined Native American culture. The woman that is called the "deer dancer" is referred as the end of beauty meaning that she was the last beautiful piece of a dying culture. She symbolized the old Indian culture as a whole. She was beautiful, graceful, and more importantly she was identified as a piece nature, being a deer. Harjo is trying to portray the Indian culture as broken and distorted. The "deer dancer" is the last thing holding up this dying culture.

noehmke said...

1. What stood out to me the most in of these poems was the taking over land mainly by white people. In autobiography she talks about her heitage and how her land stood for defeat. What also stood out to me was the story her mom told her about how god made people and the native americans were cooked just right, while blacks were cooked too long and whites not long enough.

2.The reason that that stood out to me was because i think it is in a way a racist comment. we see racism still today in our society and that story really stuck out to me.

3.What triggered my reaction was it was the main part of the story that caught my attention. it was the part that i understood the best.

Devan said...

Deer Dancer
I really like the way the poet, Joy Harjo uses the metaphor of a deer to compare to a woman dancing naked in a bar. When I think of a deer, I think of a very quiet, sensitive, nurturing animal. It's interesting that even though this woman came into this bar and danced naked, she was still one of them, and she was not kicked out of the bar but simply watched by the others. If I were there, I would have been embarrassed for her. I might have left. I think that this is part of my American heritage acting out.

Autobiography
I really like how Joy Harjo begins telling how she was "a stolen people in a stolen land" and leads into figuring out herself--being introduced to drinking at age 14 and then seeing a man laying drunken on the ground. As she helped him, I think she figured out herself more. That part of her life became her past, and as she said, she "has since then outlived that man from Jemez, my father and that ragged self [she] chased through precarious years. But [she carries] them with [her] the same as this body carries the heart as a drum]". That is my favorite line in the entire work. I think that we all go through an experience in our lives that sticks with us and becames part of us, making us who we are. I do not know whether or not that has happened to me, or maybe for it will be a collection of experiences from my life that will make me who I am, or maybe I already am who I am, if that makes sense.

adam morris said...

"Deer Dancer" is a sad poem that paints a picture of an economically depressed Indian culture. They spend all their money on alcohol, and try to wash away their problems. I see a bunch of guys sitting at the bar drinking and complaining about life. They see the woman as a spark of light in their dark lives.

"I knew then this was the Muscogee season of forgiveness, time of new corn, the spiraling dance." After helping a homeless man, and nursing him, it patches her life together. She forgives, or at least accepts her life. Instead of drinking heavily and thinking about the past, she is moving on. She uses the quote, "Nothing can be forgotten, only left behind." Native Americans today do not forget their past or their ancestors. Because of today's culture, since Columbus made the voyage to the New World, they are forced to change. They are forcefully moved from their homelands. They have casinos and liquor stores on their reservations. They are just trying to keep their heritage, but in today's world, money is essential for survival. They can't live off the land anymore, which has forced them to adapt to their environment.

Joe said...

the things that stand out in my mind about Harjo would be that she didn't flat out say that she was an alcoholic but she was obviously at the bar quite a bite. The things in my background that would explain this would be for one reason that I too like Harjo live in a section of the country that provides alot of agricultual benefits, and another thing that started my reaction would be that like her people I too have to do my best just to make something of myself and finally the last thing that triggered my reaction would be because there are so many people in today's world that have a drinking problem and they won't admit it to go out and get help through their families or any other resource.

greg said...

The Deer Dancer was very easy to imagine everyone standing at the bar. Also it implies that there may have been some drunken people at this place.But none the less it was a very interesting story. this poem is about american indians who hang out in a really torn up bar.

The second story explains that harjo and her people came to the southeastern United states and agricultural part of the country

@leya said...

I found the poems "Deer Dancer" and "Autobiography" to be interesting! Not only did they talk about the situations that go along with being a Native American, but they used real examples to help get a better understanding!

Poems like these help people realize what it is like to be different and sometimes not completely understood! And at the same time it tells people no matter what others think or how many problems there may be with you or your culture you should not be ashamed of who you are or where you came from!

brad said...

From reading this poem, "The Deer Dancer," it seemed to me that these drunks at the bar were the ruins of native americans. What stood out in my mind was that her naked dance meant something to all of them. Deer are a beautiful animal so it must of been a beautiful dance.

brad bauman said...

The way these stories correspond to today's people really stood out to me. People today are often found in taverns looking at women to satisfy their perverted needs. The first story shows me that even the Indians like to get drunk and have a good time. Also, it shows how the Indians often compared women to animals like the deer in the first peom. These stories show how though things have changed dramatically since the Indians, our personalities are about the same in some instances.

Joy Harjo has an interesting way of comparing people today to the Indians. I don't necessarily agree with everything she says, but she does bring up some very interesting points.

casey said...

The way the Joy is telling this story to me, is both good and bad. I dont think its acceptable to be drinking naked ontop of a bar. For us to be a deer in our culture to me would say we are an animal who trys to make a living for itself. I think Inidians had their own kind of dances for their culture and maybe she was showing some sort of indian culture dancing on the bar. This story is still confusing. In the second story it sounds like where she came from wasnt a place anyone would like to live in. She didn't know herself where she was and now that she has moved, she has found who she is.

Chaddillac said...

"The Deer Dancer" gives you a real visual on what the scene looked like. As I was reading it i could see my self at that bar. It was a story that one may hear from a friend after a crazy night.

The "Autobiography" is a great way to see how she has been raised and how her family felt and what has become of her.

Both poems were great.

Joel Washko said...

What stood out to me about the first poem, "Deer Dancer" was how Harjo was talking about how we can see visions in different things. I thought it was interesting how she mentioned the man that paid her back her money, which she thought he never would, because he saw visions in the dancing girl.

In the second poem Harjo talks about the Muskogee as a defeated people. Being taken from their homeland in the southeast to Oklahoma. She made the comment that, "Oklahoma was defeat," which I thought was interesting. The second poem certainly outlines the sadness and troubled times of the Muskogee. I also found it interesting how she nurses the homeless man because he reminded her of her own father. And when she sees him years after she talks to him with respect as if he is her father.

rachelg said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
rachelg said...

The "Deer Dancer" poem seems to be a depressing piece of work. What seems to be a young beautiful Indian lady who finds herself in a shady bar surrounded by drunk men, that cannot take their eyes off her. I believe this woman is striving for attention in the wrong way. One who flaunts themselves in this manner is asking to be looked at and talked about. I know my values would not cause me to react in this way.
The poem Autiobiography by Joy Harjo, relfects on a piece of her life. She mentions the statement her mother made to her regarding the color of their skin. Since she has outlived her family and the stranger, she looks back on the memories; however not many if any are positive. She states how the Native Americans were cheated, their land was stolen and they were not respected.

Brian said...

The first poem was definatly confusing and hard to understand the point. I do understand that they're in a old ran down bar and a woman walks in when the jukebox starts. The woman gets everyone in the bars attention even when she is not doing anything special. You really have to think about this poem to understand itand you probably wont understand it all at once. I honestly dont know anything in my background that would make me react the way these people did. The work trigger show how one little thing can make a huge differnence like it did in the people at the bars life.
The second story was very similair to the the first accept it had to do with people losing there land.

Anonymous said...

I feel that in both poems, her actions have a lot to do with how she was raised. The part that stands out the most to me in this poem is when she compares someone to the deer. I feel that she compares a lot of things in her life to nature. I feel that her poems really reflect who she is as a person. I guess that being compared to the deer would be a good thing coming from her because that seems to be her nature.

In the second poem she seems to be a caring person based on her actions. The part that stands out to me the most in this poem would be when she cares for the man. The words that she uses, "And I talked to him as if he were my father, with that respect, that hunger". That shows to me that she seems to be an open, and a caring person, to others in need.

Lucas said...

What stands out in my mind is when she says in "The Deer Dancer" that they are all american ruins. I see this as her calling them all alcoholics.

As for the deer dancer when she walked in they said that she was beauty at its end therefore when she was dancing on the bar naked, these people saw pass the drunken woman and recognized her beauty and gracefullness. Like a deer

Lucas said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jared16 said...

"Autobiography" has the same concept as "deer dancer" they speak of the dying Indian culture and speak of finding happiness in the mist of sorrow. Even as a young girl she found sorrow in her culture, as she grew older she realized that there was hope, and to be positive.

joel2 said...

These poems were both sad in a way that they show the downfall of the Native American people. Especially the Muscogee people. The author of these poems Joy Harjo especially in the poem "Autobigraphy" tells about the struggles she went through growing up in a culture who's ways and customs are dying out. It is very sad to think about the displacment of the native americans and how they were forced to abandon their lands and move west. Both of these poems also involve the use of alcohol which is and has always been a major problem for native American people.

Brooke said...

"Deer Dancer" Daning must have been this womens passion. For her to be able to get up and dance in front of all strangers takes alot of confidence. Trust me I know because me being a dancer knows how hard it is to get up and dance all by yourself rather then when with a group. Dancing must have really gave her joy.

"Autobiography" I really enjoyed reading her mother quote on how people were made. I think thats it's a good hypothesis on how people were made acorrding to thier skin tones.

Andrea said...

With Deer Dancer I can see the people sitting on a bar stool getting drunk. This is what their lives were all about. I think these people weren't happy with the way they lived but they chose to accept it. I guess being compared to a deer is a good thing. I think deers are beautiful. Stupid...but beautiful.

"Autobiography" We all go through trials in our lives. She tells us everything she has gone through. Because of her race she felt like and probably was an outcast. Her mom had a very unique way of explaining how people were made.

bcasson said...

Muscogee culture is very open and somewhat respected. A lovely native woman comes into a bar and no one knows why she would be coming into a place like that bar. Harjo seems to be somewhat depressing in his writing. He writes about drinking. He also talks about forgeveness and new beginnings. I think Harjo has mixed feelings about the way culture has mixed together, or if it has even completely meshed. "Deer Dancer" also talks about the lady as being somewhat lonely and that her culture is shrinking. She comes in knowing that she is different than other people, but she is proud to be who she is. She seems to be trying to get attention from the men, and she does. "Autobiography" talks more about the indian culture and having to stick together. The girl in the poem takes in a man and cares for him and thinks of him as her father. The story that her mother tells is an interesting way of looking at things. She looks back and realizes her life was a little different than others. I think that the Native Americans did have it a little harder than we may have and their culture is different than ours, but they, as a group, will always stick together.

bcasson said...

Muscogee culture is very open and somewhat respected. A lovely native woman comes into a bar and no one knows why she would be coming into a place like that bar. Harjo seems to be somewhat depressing in his writing. He writes about drinking. He also talks about forgeveness and new beginnings. I think Harjo has mixed feelings about the way culture has mixed together, or if it has even completely meshed. "Deer Dancer" also talks about the lady as being somewhat lonely and that her culture is shrinking. She comes in knowing that she is different than other people, but she is proud to be who she is. She seems to be trying to get attention from the men, and she does. "Autobiography" talks more about the indian culture and having to stick together. The girl in the poem takes in a man and cares for him and thinks of him as her father. The story that her mother tells is an interesting way of looking at things. She looks back and realizes her life was a little different than others. I think that the Native Americans did have it a little harder than we may have and their culture is different than ours, but they, as a group, will always stick together.